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Oscam + Tvheadend. Channels won't descramble. Please help.
Added by Peter LB over 7 years ago
Hi I'm new to Oscam so hope someone can help me. Have used many hours and it still won't work.
Earlier I was running NewCS on a raspberry pi, but would like to switch to Oscam, since I couldn't decrypt all channels.
I'm running Oscam on a Debian VirtualBox and USB passthrough on my Smargo Smartreader2+ with a Viaccess card, I'm running it up against a TVHeadend, but it wont descramble any channels. TVheadend log is also included.
oscam.server- oscam.server generated automatically by Streamboard OSCAM 1.20-unstable_svn SVN r11360
- Read more: http://www.streamboard.tv/svn/oscam/trun...scam.server.txt
[reader]
label = Ziggo
protocol = mouse
device = /dev/ttyUSB0
pincode = 0000
caid = 0500
detect = cd
mhz = 600
ident = 0500:FFF490,040210,040220,040230,040240
showcls = 4
group = 1
emmcache = 1,3,2,0
- oscam.user generated automatically by Streamboard OSCAM 1.20-unstable_svn SVN r11360
- Read more: http://www.streamboard.tv/svn/oscam/trun.../oscam.user.txt
[account]
user = tvheadend
pwd = tvheadend
caid = 0500
monlevel = 1
au = Ziggo
group = 1
- main configuration #
[global]
nice = -1
WaitForCards = 1
- logging
logfile = /var/log/oscam/oscam.log
usrfile = /var/log/oscam/oscamuser.log
cwlogdir = /var/log/oscam/cw
- monitor
[monitor]
port = 988
aulow = 120
monlevel = 1
- web interface
[webif]
httpport = 8888
httpuser = xxxxx
httppwd = xxxxx
httpallowed = 127.0.0.1,192.168.1.1-192.168.1.255,::1
- anti-cascading
[anticasc]
enabled = 1
numusers = 1
sampletime = 2
samples = 5
penalty = 1
aclogfile = /var/log/oscam/aclog.log
denysamples = 9
- protocols
[newcamd]
key = 0102030405060708091011121314
port = 10000@0500:FFFFFF;10001@0200:FFF000,FFFF00;10002@0300:FFFFFF
Tvheadend:
2017-02-28 14:03:41.322 cwc: Connected to 192.168.1.27:10000
2017-02-28 14:03:44.198 cwc: 192.168.1.27:10000: Connected as user tvheadend to a Viaccess-card [0x0500 : 00.00.00.00.00.00.00.00] with 1 provider
2017-02-28 14:03:44.198 cwc: 192.168.1.27:10000: Provider ID #1: 0x0500:0xffffff 00.00.00.00.00.00.00.00
2017-02-28 14:03:44.198 cwc: 192.168.1.27:10000: Will not forward EMMs (not allowed by server)
2017-02-28 14:04:00.976 mpegts: 188MHz in DVB-C Network - tuning on HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #0 (192.168.1.187)
2017-02-28 14:04:00.976 tvhdhomerun: tuning to a8qam64-6875:188000000
2017-02-28 14:04:00.981 subscription: 0033: "epggrab" subscribing to mux "188MHz", weight: 4, adapter: "HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #0 (192.168.1.187)", network: "DVB-C Network", service: "Raw PID Subscription"
2017-02-28 14:04:00.981 mpegts: 506MHz in DVB-C Network - tuning on HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #1 (192.168.1.187)
2017-02-28 14:04:00.981 tvhdhomerun: tuning to a8qam64-6875:506000000
2017-02-28 14:04:00.990 subscription: 0034: "epggrab" subscribing to mux "506MHz", weight: 4, adapter: "HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #1 (192.168.1.187)", network: "DVB-C Network", service: "Raw PID Subscription"
2017-02-28 14:04:00.990 mpegts: 143MHz in DVB-C Network - tuning on HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #2 (192.168.1.187)
2017-02-28 14:04:00.990 tvhdhomerun: tuning to a8qam64-6875:143000000
2017-02-28 14:04:00.998 subscription: 0035: "epggrab" subscribing to mux "143MHz", weight: 4, adapter: "HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #2 (192.168.1.187)", network: "DVB-C Network", service: "Raw PID Subscription"
2017-02-28 14:04:00.998 mpegts: 514MHz in DVB-C Network - tuning on HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #3 (192.168.1.187)
2017-02-28 14:04:00.998 tvhdhomerun: tuning to a8qam64-6875:514000000
2017-02-28 14:04:01.007 subscription: 0036: "epggrab" subscribing to mux "514MHz", weight: 4, adapter: "HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #3 (192.168.1.187)", network: "DVB-C Network", service: "Raw PID Subscription"
2017-02-28 14:14:15.976 epggrab: PSIP: ATSC Grabber - data completion timeout for 188MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:14:15.976 epggrab: EIT: DVB Grabber - data completion timeout for 188MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:14:15.976 subscription: 0033: "epggrab" unsubscribing
2017-02-28 14:14:15.991 epggrab: EIT: DVB Grabber - data completion timeout for 514MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:14:15.991 epggrab: PSIP: ATSC Grabber - data completion timeout for 514MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:14:15.991 subscription: 0036: "epggrab" unsubscribing
2017-02-28 14:14:15.993 epggrab: PSIP: ATSC Grabber - data completion timeout for 143MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:14:15.993 epggrab: EIT: DVB Grabber - data completion timeout for 143MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:14:15.993 subscription: 0035: "epggrab" unsubscribing
2017-02-28 14:14:15.994 epggrab: EIT: DVB Grabber - data completion timeout for 506MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:14:15.994 epggrab: PSIP: ATSC Grabber - data completion timeout for 506MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:14:15.994 subscription: 0034: "epggrab" unsubscribing
2017-02-28 14:14:16.992 mpegts: 570MHz in DVB-C Network - tuning on HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #0 (192.168.1.187)
2017-02-28 14:14:16.992 tvhdhomerun: tuning to a8qam64-6875:570000000
2017-02-28 14:14:16.996 subscription: 0038: "epggrab" subscribing to mux "570MHz", weight: 4, adapter: "HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #0 (192.168.1.187)", network: "DVB-C Network", service: "Raw PID Subscription"
2017-02-28 14:14:16.996 mpegts: 546MHz in DVB-C Network - tuning on HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #1 (192.168.1.187)
2017-02-28 14:14:16.996 tvhdhomerun: tuning to a8qam64-6875:546000000
2017-02-28 14:14:17.001 subscription: 0039: "epggrab" subscribing to mux "546MHz", weight: 4, adapter: "HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #1 (192.168.1.187)", network: "DVB-C Network", service: "Raw PID Subscription"
2017-02-28 14:14:17.001 mpegts: 530MHz in DVB-C Network - tuning on HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #2 (192.168.1.187)
2017-02-28 14:14:17.001 tvhdhomerun: tuning to a8qam64-6875:530000000
2017-02-28 14:14:17.007 subscription: 003A: "epggrab" subscribing to mux "530MHz", weight: 4, adapter: "HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #2 (192.168.1.187)", network: "DVB-C Network", service: "Raw PID Subscription"
2017-02-28 14:14:17.007 mpegts: 458MHz in DVB-C Network - tuning on HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #3 (192.168.1.187)
2017-02-28 14:14:17.007 tvhdhomerun: tuning to a8qam64-6875:458000000
2017-02-28 14:14:17.013 subscription: 003B: "epggrab" subscribing to mux "458MHz", weight: 4, adapter: "HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #3 (192.168.1.187)", network: "DVB-C Network", service: "Raw PID Subscription"
2017-02-28 14:24:31.992 epggrab: PSIP: ATSC Grabber - data completion timeout for 458MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:24:31.992 epggrab: EIT: DVB Grabber - data completion timeout for 458MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:24:31.992 subscription: 003B: "epggrab" unsubscribing
2017-02-28 14:24:31.994 epggrab: EIT: DVB Grabber - data completion timeout for 530MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:24:31.994 epggrab: PSIP: ATSC Grabber - data completion timeout for 530MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:24:31.994 subscription: 003A: "epggrab" unsubscribing
2017-02-28 14:24:31.996 epggrab: EIT: DVB Grabber - data completion timeout for 546MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:24:31.996 epggrab: PSIP: ATSC Grabber - data completion timeout for 546MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:24:31.996 subscription: 0039: "epggrab" unsubscribing
2017-02-28 14:24:31.997 epggrab: EIT: DVB Grabber - data completion timeout for 570MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:24:31.997 epggrab: PSIP: ATSC Grabber - data completion timeout for 570MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:24:31.997 subscription: 0038: "epggrab" unsubscribing
2017-02-28 14:24:33.000 mpegts: 578MHz in DVB-C Network - tuning on HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #0 (192.168.1.187)
2017-02-28 14:24:33.000 tvhdhomerun: tuning to a8qam64-6875:578000000
2017-02-28 14:24:33.005 subscription: 003D: "epggrab" subscribing to mux "578MHz", weight: 4, adapter: "HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #0 (192.168.1.187)", network: "DVB-C Network", service: "Raw PID Subscription"
2017-02-28 14:24:33.005 mpegts: 602MHz in DVB-C Network - tuning on HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #1 (192.168.1.187)
2017-02-28 14:24:33.005 tvhdhomerun: tuning to a8qam64-6875:602000000
2017-02-28 14:24:33.009 subscription: 003E: "epggrab" subscribing to mux "602MHz", weight: 4, adapter: "HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #1 (192.168.1.187)", network: "DVB-C Network", service: "Raw PID Subscription"
2017-02-28 14:24:33.009 mpegts: 538MHz in DVB-C Network - tuning on HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #2 (192.168.1.187)
2017-02-28 14:24:33.009 tvhdhomerun: tuning to a8qam64-6875:538000000
2017-02-28 14:24:33.013 subscription: 003F: "epggrab" subscribing to mux "538MHz", weight: 4, adapter: "HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #2 (192.168.1.187)", network: "DVB-C Network", service: "Raw PID Subscription"
2017-02-28 14:24:33.013 mpegts: 586MHz in DVB-C Network - tuning on HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #3 (192.168.1.187)
2017-02-28 14:24:33.013 tvhdhomerun: tuning to a8qam64-6875:586000000
2017-02-28 14:24:33.018 subscription: 0040: "epggrab" subscribing to mux "586MHz", weight: 4, adapter: "HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #3 (192.168.1.187)", network: "DVB-C Network", service: "Raw PID Subscription"
2017-02-28 14:34:48.006 epggrab: EIT: DVB Grabber - data completion timeout for 586MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:34:48.006 epggrab: PSIP: ATSC Grabber - data completion timeout for 586MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:34:48.006 subscription: 0040: "epggrab" unsubscribing
2017-02-28 14:34:48.007 epggrab: EIT: DVB Grabber - data completion timeout for 538MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:34:48.007 epggrab: PSIP: ATSC Grabber - data completion timeout for 538MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:34:48.007 subscription: 003F: "epggrab" unsubscribing
2017-02-28 14:34:48.008 epggrab: EIT: DVB Grabber - data completion timeout for 602MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:34:48.008 epggrab: PSIP: ATSC Grabber - data completion timeout for 602MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:34:48.008 subscription: 003E: "epggrab" unsubscribing
2017-02-28 14:34:48.009 epggrab: EIT: DVB Grabber - data completion timeout for 578MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:34:48.009 epggrab: PSIP: ATSC Grabber - data completion timeout for 578MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:34:48.009 subscription: 003D: "epggrab" unsubscribing
2017-02-28 14:34:49.011 mpegts: 196MHz in DVB-C Network - tuning on HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #0 (192.168.1.187)
2017-02-28 14:34:49.012 tvhdhomerun: tuning to a8qam64-6875:196000000
2017-02-28 14:34:49.018 subscription: 0042: "epggrab" subscribing to mux "196MHz", weight: 4, adapter: "HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #0 (192.168.1.187)", network: "DVB-C Network", service: "Raw PID Subscription"
2017-02-28 14:34:49.019 mpegts: 498MHz in DVB-C Network - tuning on HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #1 (192.168.1.187)
2017-02-28 14:34:49.020 tvhdhomerun: tuning to a8qam64-6875:498000000
2017-02-28 14:34:49.026 subscription: 0043: "epggrab" subscribing to mux "498MHz", weight: 4, adapter: "HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #1 (192.168.1.187)", network: "DVB-C Network", service: "Raw PID Subscription"
2017-02-28 14:34:49.026 mpegts: 594MHz in DVB-C Network - tuning on HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #2 (192.168.1.187)
2017-02-28 14:34:49.027 tvhdhomerun: tuning to a8qam64-6875:594000000
2017-02-28 14:34:49.031 subscription: 0044: "epggrab" subscribing to mux "594MHz", weight: 4, adapter: "HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #2 (192.168.1.187)", network: "DVB-C Network", service: "Raw PID Subscription"
2017-02-28 14:45:04.020 epggrab: EIT: DVB Grabber - data completion timeout for 594MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:45:04.020 epggrab: PSIP: ATSC Grabber - data completion timeout for 594MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:45:04.020 subscription: 0044: "epggrab" unsubscribing
2017-02-28 14:45:04.023 epggrab: EIT: DVB Grabber - data completion timeout for 498MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:45:04.023 epggrab: PSIP: ATSC Grabber - data completion timeout for 498MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:45:04.023 subscription: 0043: "epggrab" unsubscribing
2017-02-28 14:45:04.025 epggrab: PSIP: ATSC Grabber - data completion timeout for 196MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:45:04.025 epggrab: EIT: DVB Grabber - data completion timeout for 196MHz in DVB-C Network
2017-02-28 14:45:04.025 subscription: 0042: "epggrab" unsubscribing
Loglevel debug: enabled
Loglevel debug: disabled
2017-02-28 15:10:13.586 htsp: xx.xx.xxx.x [ admin | org.tvheadend.tvhclient ]: Disconnected
2017-02-28 15:10:13.653 htsp: Got connection from xx.xx.xxx.x
2017-02-28 15:10:13.662 htsp: xx.xx.xxx.x: Identified as user 'admin' (unverified)
2017-02-28 15:10:13.662 htsp: xx.xx.xxx.x [ admin ]: Welcomed client software: org.tvheadend.tvhclient (HTSPv23)
2017-02-28 15:10:13.692 htsp: xx.xx.xxx.x [ admin | org.tvheadend.tvhclient ]: Identified as user 'admin'
2017-02-28 15:10:13.692 htsp: xx.xx.xxx.x [ admin | org.tvheadend.tvhclient ]: Privileges updated
2017-02-28 15:10:19.597 htsp: xx.xx.xxx.x [ admin | org.tvheadend.tvhclient ]: Disconnected
2017-02-28 15:10:23.572 htsp: Got connection from xx.xx.xxx.x
2017-02-28 15:10:23.585 htsp: xx.xx.xxx.x: Identified as user 'admin' (unverified)
2017-02-28 15:10:23.585 htsp: xx.xx.xxx.x [ admin ]: Welcomed client software: org.tvheadend.tvhclient (HTSPv23)
2017-02-28 15:10:23.612 htsp: xx.xx.xxx.x [ admin | org.tvheadend.tvhclient ]: Identified as user 'admin'
2017-02-28 15:10:23.612 htsp: xx.xx.xxx.x [ admin | org.tvheadend.tvhclient ]: Privileges updated
2017-02-28 15:10:33.725 http: xx.xx.xxx.x: using ticket A62B253DDX316FC289E0BA848F52086XXC055C33F0A for /stream/channelid/985083476
2017-02-28 15:10:33.725 mpegts: 514MHz in DVB-C Network - tuning on HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #0 (192.168.1.187)
2017-02-28 15:10:33.725 tvhdhomerun: tuning to a8qam64-6875:514000000
2017-02-28 15:10:33.735 subscription: 0045: "HTTP" subscribing on channel "TV3+", weight: 100, adapter: "HDHomeRun DVB-C Tuner #0 (192.168.1.187)", network: "DVB-C Network", mux: "514MHz", provider: "YouSee", service: "TV3+", profile="pass", hostname=" xx.xx.xxx.x", username="admin", client="Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; Android 6.0.1; da-DK; SM-G935F Build/MMB29K.G935FXXU1BPLB) MXPlayer/1.8.9"
2017-02-28 15:10:36.033 descrambler: cannot decode packets for service "TV3+"
2017-02-28 15:10:46.061 descrambler: cannot decode packets for service "TV3+"
2017-02-28 15:10:56.075 descrambler: cannot decode packets for service "TV3+"
Replies (45)
RE: Oscam + Tvheadend. Channels won't descramble. Please help. - Added by Peter LB over 6 years ago
Yes it is. See attachment earlier (Udklip.jpg)
CARDOK (No entitlements)
RE: Oscam + Tvheadend. Channels won't descramble. Please help. - Added by Peter LB over 6 years ago
Also see this attachment. I only get EMM in users when reassembly = 0.
In readers it states error:
UK/G/S/UQ
0 0 40 0 in EMM
I just want it to update the card
Unavngivet2.png (31 KB) Unavngivet2.png |
RE: Oscam + Tvheadend. Channels won't descramble. Please help. - Added by saen acro over 6 years ago
Peter LB wrote:
Yes it is. See attachment earlier (Udklip.jpg)
CARDOK (No entitlements)
This message mean that oscam read the card but it need active entitlement to descramble.
I can attach my oscam version to test.
Peter LB wrote:
What is situation with C or N line client in TVH.
I don't know what that is.
Newcamd = N-line
Cccamd = C-line
RE: Oscam + Tvheadend. Channels won't descramble. Please help. - Added by Peter LB over 6 years ago
I'm using DVBAPI
RE: Oscam + Tvheadend. Channels won't descramble. Please help. - Added by Peter LB over 6 years ago
My Oscam is r11391 and there no updated version in Libreelec. Is there an older version that works, or is there a setting I'm missing to get it working?
RE: Oscam + Tvheadend. Channels won't descramble. Please help. - Added by saen acro over 6 years ago
can you post oscam.version
RE: Oscam + Tvheadend. Channels won't descramble. Please help. - Added by Peter LB over 6 years ago
As stated in the post above it's Oscam r11391.
I've just installed Version: oscam-1.20-unstable_svn-r11420
but the problem is the same!
RE: Oscam + Tvheadend. Channels won't descramble. Please help. - Added by saen acro over 6 years ago
Try with this oscam
can you try this scenario
add card reader to grout 1 and 2
add dvbapi client to group 1 and N-line to group 2
see from where read TVH
Are you try to change dvbapi port from 9000 to anything else?
RE: Oscam + Tvheadend. Channels won't descramble. Please help. - Added by Peter LB over 6 years ago
Thanks.
I don't know how to build the .git file.
I can download it but how do I install that?
On a side note, yes using port 9000.
Have also added httpemmsclean = 1 to webif, and I can see the EMMs are saved and I can see them in write emm in reader, but how do I get it to write to the reader?
RE: Oscam + Tvheadend. Channels won't descramble. Please help. - Added by saen acro over 6 years ago
the manual + .patch file from this repo
this will extend dvbapi options
RE: Oscam + Tvheadend. Channels won't descramble. Please help. - Added by Peter LB over 6 years ago
Got it installed with git clone.
Still the same error: can't find 0xf0 in emm...
RE: Oscam + Tvheadend. Channels won't descramble. Please help. - Added by Peter LB over 6 years ago
In emulator it shows 3 entitlements but no entitlements in SMARGO1.
RE: Oscam + Tvheadend. Channels won't descramble. Please help. - Added by Peter LB over 6 years ago
I don't know how to get the .patch file working, have installed the latest oscam emu though.
RE: Oscam + Tvheadend. Channels won't descramble. Please help. - Added by saen acro over 6 years ago
Is time set correctly?
RE: Oscam + Tvheadend. Channels won't descramble. Please help. - Added by Peter LB over 6 years ago
Have done it now, but still the same error.
Don't know how to apply that specific patch file.
RE: Oscam + Tvheadend. Channels won't descramble. Please help. - Added by saen acro over 6 years ago
Peter LB wrote:
Have done it now, but still the same error.
Don't know how to apply that specific patch file.
read manual .patch to patch folder
from menu enable patch
RE: Oscam + Tvheadend. Channels won't descramble. Please help. - Added by Peter LB over 6 years ago
not possible with simplebuild which you link to
RE: Oscam + Tvheadend. Channels won't descramble. Please help. - Added by Markus Endres over 6 years ago
Next try
ident = 0500:FFF490,040210,040220,040230,040240 emmcache = 1,3,31
This should log all emm.
and then show us a new oscam log
RE: Oscam + Tvheadend. Channels won't descramble. Please help. - Added by Peter LB over 6 years ago
Hi Markus. Thanks for the answer. Still same error
Log is here: https://pastebin.com/MAuShXHh
.conf is:
[webif]
httpport = 8888
httpuser = admin
httppwd = Retep1982
httpallowed = 0.0.0.0-255.255.255.255
httpemmsclean = 1
[global]
logfile = /storage/.kodi/userdata/addon_data/service.softcam.oscam/log/oscam.log
nice = -1
maxlogsize = 1000
dropdups = 1
usrfile = /storage/.kodi/userdata/addon_data/service.softcam.oscam/log/oscamuser.log
cwlogdir = /storage/.kodi/userdata/addon_data/service.softcam.oscam/log/cw/
emmlogdir = /storage/.kodi/userdata/addon_data/service.softcam.oscam/log/
double_check_caid = 0500
lb_mode = 1
fallbacktimeout = 2500
lb_min_ecmcount = 5
lb_max_ecmcount = 500
lb_reopen_seconds = 900
[cache]
max_time = 100
[dvbapi]
enabled = 1
au = 1
pmt_mode = 4
request_mode = 1
listen_port = 9000
delayer = 60
user = tvheadend
read_sdt = 2
write_sdt_prov = 1
extended_cw_api = 1
boxtype = pc
Reader is now:
[reader]
label = SMARGO1
description = Smartreader
protocol = smartreader
device = SRv2;Serial:AERTY675
smargopatch = 1
caid = 0500
detect = cd
mhz = 357
cardmhz = 357
#ident = 0500:040210
group = 1
ident = 0500:FFF490,040210,040220,040230,040240
emmcache = 1,3,31
saveemm-s = 1
User is:
[account]
user = tvheadend
au = 1
group = 1
emmreassembly = 0
RE: Oscam + Tvheadend. Channels won't descramble. Please help. - Added by Markus Endres over 6 years ago
How long are you trying to descramble?
I've read that the error may occur when the card doesn't need that emm.
Try to stay a longer time on the crypted channel.
For me, it looks like the communication between tvh-oscam-reader is running fine.
The only thing you could try is switching off the "smargopatch".
I've run out of ideas...
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